Eh. If you’re just not buying any new car, you’ve already paid off the one you have, then that is a choice - and no corporation is getting any more money from you as a result of it. But I feel the pain of what you’re saying. The case you’re describing really rears its head for things like groceries where you actually do need to just keep buying them forever, and you may not have a farmer’s market around. But I think people could truly cut down on their car consumption a lot. Some Americans are getting new cars every three years or so.

Yes, but “the masses” are able to deploy concerted power, like in the instance of the harm done to Tesla sales lately. It’s just more difficult to coordinate it.

The weirdly comforting thing here is that more than half of the wealth is still in the bottom 99%. That means the masses still have economic power. The problem, of course, is that they cannot deploy it with the same coordination as the smaller group.

Yeah, you’re absolutely right and I agree. So then do we have to resign the situation to being an eternal back-and-forth of just developing random new challenges every time the scrapers adapt to them? Like antibiotics for viruses? Maybe that is the way it is. And honestly that’s what I suspect. But Anubis feels so clever and so close to something that would work. The concept of making it about a cost that adds up, so that it intrinsically only effects massive processes significantly, is really smart…since it’s not about coming up with a challenge a computer can’t complete, but just a challenge that makes it economically not worth it to complete. But it’s disappointing to see that, at least with the current wait times, it doesn’t seem like it will cost enough to dissuade scrapers. And worse, the cost is so low that it seems like making the cost significant to the scrapers will require really insufferable wait times for users.

By negligence, I meant that the cost is negligible to the companies running scrapers, not that the solution itself is negligent. I should have said “negligibility” of Anubis, sorry - that was poor clarity on my part.

But I do think that the cost of it is indeed negligible, as the article shows. It doesn’t really matter if the author is biased or not, their analysis of the costs seems reasonable. I would need a counter-argument against that to think they were wrong. Just because they’re biased isn’t enough to discount the quantification they attempted to bring to the debate.

Also, I don’t think there’s any hypocrisy in me saying I’ve only thought about other solutions here and there - I’m not maintaining an anti-scraping library. And there’s already been indications that scrapers are just accepting the cost of Anubis on Codeberg, right? So I’m not trying to say I’m some sort of tech genius who has the right idea here, but from what Codeberg was saying, and from the numbers in this article, it sure looks like Anubis isn’t the right idea. I am indeed only having fun with my suggestions, not making whole libraries out of them and pronouncing them to be solutions. I personally haven’t seen evidence that Anubis is so clearly working? As the author points out, it seems like it’s only working right now because of how new it is, but if scrapers want to go through it, they easily can - which puts us in a sort of virus/antibiotic eternal war of attrition. And if course that is the case with many things in computing as well. So I guess my open wondering are just about if there’s ever any way to develop a countermeasure that the scrapers won’t find “worth it” to force through?

Edit for tone clarity: I’m don’t want to be antagonistic, rude, or hurtful in any way. Just trying to have a discussion and understand this situation. Perhaps I was arrogant, if so I apologize. It was also not my intent, fwiw. Also, thanks for helping me understand why I was getting downvoted. I intended my post to just be constructive spitballing about what I see as the eventual inevitable weakness in Anubis. I think it’s a great project and it’s great that people are getting use out of it even temporarily, and of course the devs deserve lots of respect for making the thing. But as much as I wish I could like it and believe it will solve the problem, I still don’t think it will.

I thought that at first too and I wasn’t gonna say anything but I was thinking to myself “bro is definitely writing some really shitty code”

Oversaturated?!? Maybe if you’re a plebian bootcamp passionless 0.1x-er who hasn’t even contributed to multiple open source projects or founded at least 3 startups. Maybe you should try internalizing all PhD-worthy algorithms from the last 30 years to reproduce them on the spot from memory like I did, or else do you really even care about the craft??? You need to understand this industry is full of math olympiad prodigy coder geniuses who work 80 hours a week like me so yeah it’s competitive. Nothing oversaturated about that

/s

Yeah, well-written stuff. I think Anubis will come and go. This beautifully demonstrates and, best of all, quantifies the negligence negligible cost to scrapers of Anubis.

It’s very interesting to try to think of what would work, even conceptually. Some sort of purely client-side captcha type of thing perhaps. I keep thinking about it in half-assed ways for minutes at a time.

Maybe something that scrambles the characters of the site according to some random “offset” of some sort, e.g maybe randomly selecting a modulus size and an offset to cycle them, or even just a good ol’ cipher. And the “captcha” consists of a slider that adjusts the offset. You as the viewer know it’s solved when the text becomes something sensical - so there’s no need for the client code to store a readable key that could be used to auto-undo the scrambling. You could maybe even have some values of the slider randomly chosen to produce English text if the scrapers got smart enough to check for legibility (not sure how to hide which slider positions would be these red herring ones though) - which could maybe be enough to trick the scraper into picking up junk text sometimes.

I know it’s popular to call conservatives dumb and while I don’t like to beat dead horses, I really think the explanation for this is that they’re dumb. The illiterate form of dumb, to be precise. The caps are a way of adding emphasis - which is something that can also be done by phrasing, word choice, sentence structure, and so on. But those techniques would require a beyond 4th grade level of writing and reading ability, so they do not succeed in the conservative communication marketplace.

I will add a disclaimer, my beloved Nietzsche also does all caps words sometimes, but I believe that since this is alongside his impressive eloquence, it is clearly not a sign of stupidity in that context. Likewise, it is not a sign of stupidity in many other contexts. That is to say:

Using that style of communication does not always make it a safer bet that someone is stupid, but being stupid does make it a safer bet that they use that style of communication.

Really incredible. This is what I imagined hacking stopped being like in 1995. I applaud Bob for having the inner fortitude to not just exploit them for infinite nuggies. The fact someone got fired for it probably contributes to why the security is so bad, corporations truly don’t deserve white hat hackers.

Yeah you’re right, I was using AI in the colloquial modern sense. My mistake. It actually drives me nuts when people do that. I should have said “without compute-heavy AI”.

Yeah, I do. I’m just grasping at straws. But you’re right, the only real solution, ironically, is to have non-open sites where you need accounts to view content. I wouldn’t mind seeing some private phpbb forums though.

The crawlers are likely not AI though, but yes OCR could be done effectively without AI anyways. This idea ultimately boils down to the same hope Anubis had of making the processing costs large enough to not be worth it.

I wasn’t being totally serious, but also, I do think that while accessibility concerns come from a good place, there is some practical limitation that must be accepted when building fringe and counter-cultural things. Like, my hidden rebel base can’t have a wheelchair accessible ramp at the entrance, because then my base isn’t hidden anymore. It sucks that some solutions can’t work for everyone, but if we just throw them out because it won’t work for 5% of people, we end up with nothing. I’d rather have a solution that works for 95% of people than no solution at all. I’m not saying that people who use screen readers are second-class citizens. If crawlers were vision-based then I might suggest matching text to background colors so that only screen readers work to understand the site. Because something that works for 5% of people is also better than no solution at all. We need to tolerate having imperfect first attempts and understand that more sophisticated infrastructure comes later.

But yes my image map idea is pretty much a joke nonetheless

Okay what about…what about uhhh… Static site builders that render the whole page out as an image map, making it visible for humans but useless for crawlers 🤔🤔🤔

https://homestarrunner.com/toons/backtoawebsite

“Lemme get that hit counter!”

I’m trying to take a progress over perfection approach to these things. My number one priority was to get off of Chrome and Firefox is pretty rough on mobile. I tried a few things and Brave was the one with the best experience, especially because of the ad blocking without needing to mess around with a bunch of plugins. I figure I can go deeper into that iceberg over time. What do you use?

I don’t know much about hacking, but it’s surprising to me that there’s not a way to get around this. What stops people from developing a forced workaround? What would need to be done to develop one?

Edit: Answering my own question, sort of, it seems that a locked bootloader uses cryptographic keys stored on the device, so the problem becomes a typical key brute forcing scenario. What a mess. It’s so annoying that there aren’t more “touchscreen handheld computers” where you can just install whatever you want on them the same as building your own PC. I hate how everything like that is being chipped away over time.

Stuff like this seems promising though in a very far-out, push-comes-to-shove kind of way: https://www.synacktiv.com/en/publications/how-to-voltage-fault-injection#protect

Yeah same, I’m on Brave and Anubis is blocking me. Not hating on them for using Anubis though. It is unfortunate that it’s blocking me nonetheless.

(Inb4 I am told to commit sudoku for using Brave, yes I know the owner sucks)

Def check out neocities more, also melonking.net and his projects are pretty cool, particularly https://melonland.net/surf-club has a lot of good sites on it